Forum Tesla discussion autour de la charge AC 43 kw

[scarred]

Un client Tesla demande pourquoi leurs modèles n'ont pas le chargeur AC 43 d'intégré, surtout pour ceux qui vivent loin des super chargeurs :

DUAL CHARGER 22 KW - YESTERDAY'S TECH
Kingsthrone | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
I think the area where Tesla is behind other EV manufacturers is AC charging. Tesla Model S single charger can take 11 kW. At an additional cost you get dual charger with 22 kW. Renault has a 43 kW charger in their model Zoe, and it is still a cheap car. Therefor I think it is strange to see that Tesla only has a 22 kW option at an additional cost.

Ok, your arguments would be that you don't need a faster charge than 22 kW AC when you have Superchargers, and that there are very few AC chargers at 43 kW. True in most cases, but there will be an increase in 43 kW AC chargers the next year to come. The benefits with AC is that you can place charging stations (43 kW outlets) almost everywhere in a city or in a garage. With DC chargers you need alot more space to put the stuff, plus a DC charging station is alot more expensive.

I challenge Tesla to make 43 kW AC charger as a standard in their upcoming models. I think that if Tesla would support 43 kW it would help Tesla's cause, to transition from fossil fuel cars towards electric cars. Because Tesla is the world leader in EV's and what Tesla does is important for the rest of the industry. 43 kW AC as an established standard would mean that other car manufacturers has greater incentives to make, and a better chance of selling, cheaper EV's with 43 kW AC chargers as their main charging ability. It would be a win win situation!

ElectricSteve | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
Who needs 43kW AC charging when you charge with 120kW at super chsrgers?

A Zoe has four regular charging modes: 3kW, 11kW, 22kW and 43kW. All AC.
43 kW cannot be had at home.
A Model S has 11kW and 22kW AC and 120kW DC. Soon we can use 50kW CHAdeMO as well (DC).

22kW is what's max, technically possible at home due to 3x 230V @ 32A. For both Model S and Zoe that is the max for @ home.
I guess Tesla focused on what possible at home (22kW AC) and left higher speeds to DC charging methods.

I don't see your what problem you are trying to solve. Tesla's solution is DC charging. There is no problem. Soon the CHAdeMO adapter enables us to go outside SC ranges with 50kW which are abundant here in Europe (but so are SC's).

David N | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
micke.register,

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I think I'll stick behind Tesla and their team.

Dramsey | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
It wouldn't make any sense for Tesla to do that. Here's why:

There are two ways to charge the Mod S: Superchargers, which provide very high charge rates up to 135kW and bypass the cars's internal chargers, and "everything else", which includes home and public charging stations.

Tesla's 20kW home chargers require a dedicated 100-amp, 240V line (max charge current 80 amps), which is pretty much the maximum any homeowner will be able to support. So a 43kW charger wouldn't do you any good there since your home power can't supply that much.

Public chargers connected to large utility lines could, but most existing cars-- Leaf, Volt, i3, etc.-- wouldn't benefit. Only Teslas and Renault Zoe's (if they're ever imported to the U.S., which seems unlikely) would.

If only there were a continent-spanning network of super-high-power charging stations...oh, wait, there is.

In other words, you can't supply 43kW from your home charger, and the Supercharger network is way better anyway. So why bother?

Kingsthrone | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
Well, if you take into consideration that alot of people live in cities (especially in Europe) with no possibility to charge a car at home, or during the night. Superchargers are placed far away between cities. Your option left is to look for any random EV outlet within the city.

22 kW means 4 hours to charge from about empty to about full. 43 kW would cut that charging time in half which is a more resonable time while you are doing shopping or some errands. 22 kW needs the car to be parked for half a working day, if you can't charge it at night.

Your/Tesla's thought model fits people with houses and a garage. My idea would include alot of more potential people to consider an EV. Yes, why bother..

ElectricSteve | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
Micke, you are missing the point. At home, in Europe, all we can have at home is 3-phase, 230V @ 32A which is 22kW.
We cannot have more than 22kW at home. End of discussion. Don't ramble about 43kW because it's not possible.

43kW means an infrastructure we cannot have. A Zoe too can only charge at 22kW at home. But i'm repeating myself.

Kingsthrone | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
ElectricSteve, I guess You miss the point. I am not talking about raising home charging rate from 22 kW to 43 kW, althought it is good to have that possibility in 5 or 10 years... In many homes today (read garages) even 22 kW would be hard to achieve without putting down some extra cash.

The idea of 43 kW charger is NOT a reaction to how things are today (like solving a problem), it is an ACTION to get EV's more viable for people who lives in cities and apartments. Why is this so hard for everyone to understand? In cities in France it is common to see more and more 43 kW EV outlet posts by the sidewalk. This is a good solution to make EV's viable for people without their own charging capability.

I ask you all a question then. How is a Tesla car a good choice for people who lives in apartments without any possibility to charge their car at night?

Näky | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
I wouldn't routinely park over 100k€ car curbside at France. Very wide aluminum made car, that is expensive to repair. When model 3 is in production there might be options for higher kW AC charging.

Kingsthrone | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
Näky: Finally a good point! Thanks you, Sir! =)

Dramsey | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
I had missed the point that you were talking about cities in Europe. And from that perspective it does make sense to have faster AC charging possible.

Kingsthrone | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
Dramsey: Yes, the point is the 43 kW charger is not only about Tesla. It is about enabling a decent AC charging standard for every near term upcoming EV out there, that is fast enough today and good enough tomorrow. The Renault Zoe doesn't use DC charging since the difference between CHAdeMO 50 kW and 43 kW AC isn't that big, and the battery is just 22 kWh. As for a charging infrastructure it is much cheaper (10 times cheaper) to build 43 kW outlets than to build DC charging stations.

The Superchargers Tesla are building are excellent, and I think they are needed - just like Elon Musk says - for EV's to be as convenient as a gasoline car for longer trips. I hope they will continue to get faster 150, 200 kW and beyond. I don't think a 43 kW outlet should replace any Supercharger for Tesla's part. But we will still need onboard AC chargers in the cars, and why not make it 43 kW while we are at it? Renault proves that 43 kW charger can't be that expensive, looking at the price of a Zoe.

In 5 or 10 years I am certain 22 kW will be regarded as slow, good enough for over night charge maybe, but during day time in cities while shopping and running errands we would ask for faster rates, or else we may not even bother to plug it in while parking. That reality will probably happen within the lifetime of a Tesla Model S and why not make the car as future convenient as possible with todays best AC standard? If price isn't a problem, then tell me why not? I just think Tesla has been lazy on that part.. "22 kW is good enough". Nothing about a Tesla should be "good enough"!

SamO | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
There are four Superchargers in the City of London. Although Superchargers are generally placed between population centers, there are many exceptions.

Don't fret. TM will open 200 Superchargers this year and twice that number next year. Within a few years, you'll be able to get a 150kW DC charge almost anywhere in Europe.

If it costs 10X for DC, assume that a 30 minute Supercharge is worth the expense to Tesla.

Kingsthrone | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
Yeah I saw the Supercharger location map for London today. I guess what I said is true then, that people need good opportunities to charge an EV within a city. And of course the faster charge the better. But there are many cities, and it would take a long time and alot of money to cover them + Inter city decently. In the US TM also has these destination chargers which are AC 22 kW, so even Tesla thinks the best solution is a combination of Superchargers and AC outlets. I think Tesla should just go 43 kW and it will be a very decent intermediate charge rate!

Oh, and the name Double charger gives the impression that it must be twice as good as anything else out there on the market. The truth is that the Double charger is half as good as what's in a 1/3 as expensive car..

SamO | 9. NOVEMBER 2014
Actually Supercharging is 3x better than the best in any other car. And it's not double charging but dual charger.

Benz | 10. NOVEMBER 2014
The Tesla Model S is the best EV that is currently available in the market. And the Tesla Supercharger network is the best charging network that is currently being expanded globally. The combination of both is fabulous.

That said, I would like to ask a question in this thread.

Is it technically possible for Tesla Motors to replace the current standard 11 KW onboard charger? I would appreciate it if others would answer this question.

I think that a single onboard charger with a higher capacity would be ideal (1 x 44 KW), but another option would be 2 onboard chargers (2 x 22 KW), and a third option would be 4 onboard chargers (4 x 11 KW).

This would result in a higher price of the Tesla Model S, but it would be a Tesla Model S that actually is technically better too, I think. I actually think that it's worth to have a discussion about it at least.

We have to admit that (at least in cities in Europe) there is a difference between "home charging" and "street charging". And it would indeed be nice if your Tesla Model S is well equiped to accept a higher charge rate when you are charging with "street charging".

Kingsthrone | 10. NOVEMBER 2014
SamO, it doesn't matter how good the Supercharger is if you have to go 100 miles to fill up your car. I am talking about the convenience level with having a Tesla while you live in a city apartment.

Benz, the idea is that Tesla should make a completely new charger for 43 kW that would be standard in every new Tesla for the same price as todays Dual charger. The Dual charger is a 5 year old technology. In another 5 years 22 kW will be regarded as slow. 43 kW will still be decent. I imagine that street chargers and parking lots with 43 kW EV outlets will be common in places around Europe in the next year or so.

Benz | 10. NOVEMBER 2014
@ Kingsthrone

In the UK many motorway public charging points are capable of 45 KW(3phase 63A 240V AC).

In the UK it makes sense to have an onboard charger with a higher capacity in Tesla Model S.

SamO | 10. NOVEMBER 2014
@Kingsthrone,

"I imagine that street chargers and parking lots with 43 kW EV outlets will be common in places around Europe in the next year or so."

You imagine the next 24 months, while Tesla actually builds Superchargers. T

They've built 180 Superchargers with over 600 actual charging spots since January 1 of this year.

Your point about an ideal world where [someone] builds street chargers for all those apartment dwellers that are buying Renault?!? doesn't seem to make much sense.

Tesla can drop temporary Superchargers for a few thousand dollars, not the $150,000 for 8 bays.

[lucienlivio]

Puisqu'ils font des doubles-chargeurs pour 22 kVA AC, pourquoi ne pas faire des doubles-doubles-chargeurs pour 43 kVA AC ?

[scarred]

Je comprend très bien le client Tesla car il a accès à des 43 proche de chez lui, sachant que les points de recharges Tesla sont en périphérie de ville, il soulève quelque chose d'intéressant surtout pour ceux qui n'ont pas de temps ou de place ou qui ne veulent tout simplement pas monter leur compteur personnel électrique pour charger à seulement 22 kwh.

[cece74]

Puisqu'ils font des doubles-chargeurs pour 22 kVA AC, pourquoi ne pas faire des doubles-doubles-chargeurs pour 43 kVA AC ?

Et ils n'y ont pas pensé ?!

Mais de toutes façons, ajouter un chargeur 43kW AC dans la tesla serait au minimum couteux. Or l'argument est que les bornes DC coutent trop cher par rapport aux bornes AC. Oui, mais mettre le convertisseur dans la voiture, où est l'économie (au contraire, il devrait y avoir plus de voitures que de bornes normalement) ?
Renault a "résolu" le problème en utilisant le moteur comme convertisseur. Mais cela a aussi ses inconvénients... au point qu'ils abandonnent même le 43kW.

[scarred]

au point qu'ils abandonnent même le 43kW.

ha bon

[cece74]

au point qu'ils abandonnent même le 43kW.

ha bon

Sur leur nouveau moteur, oui. (Même s'ils proposent toujours l'ancien)
Ils ont pour l'instant abandonné cette solution du caméléon capable de monter à 43kW. Ce qui montre bien que cela n'est pas si simple que ça.
Peut-être y reviendront-ils. Ou pas.

[scarred]

Je l'ai écrit dans le fil approprié, ce nouveau moteur est une bêtise commerciale ... car nul ne sait si le besoin de charge rapide ne se fera pas pressentir par la suite, à part ceux qui s'en servent comme véhicule professionnel et qui connaissent leurs parcours, poste, infirmière libérale ... sinon le particulier lambda même si à priori la charge rapide il s'en moque, comme moi au début par exemple, il s'apercevra vite que ces besoins peuvent évoluer et se limiter la voiture à ce niveau c'est vraiment ballot.

[Ke2]

Je l'ai écrit dans le fil approprié, ce nouveau moteur est une bêtise commerciale ...

Peut-être que même Renault ne sait pas très bien dans quel sens va le vent...
Le fait de garder les deux version au catalogue (au moins quelques temps) peut leur permettre de comparer les ventes.
Si la version "charge rapide" se vend bien mieux que la nouvelle, ils travailleront pour inclure cette possibilité dans la nouvelle, sinon... ils abandonneront l'ancienne dans quelques temps.

[scarred]

Le sens du vent ça se modifie hein, en plus ce nouveau moteur ne pourrait pas non plus se charger en DC 50 alors quel est l'intérêt si ce n'est l'autonomie réelle ajoutée de 15 ou 20 km.
Là aussi km ajoutés vis à vis de qui ou de quoi, car l'autonomie dépend surtout des capacités du conducteur à savoir rouler vite, enfin normalement comme avec un VT, mais surtout en récupérant un max.

Je vous dit pas après les occasions pour ce genre de modèle, personne n'en voudra.

[cece74]

Peut-être que même Renault ne sait pas très bien dans quel sens va le vent...
Le fait de garder les deux version au catalogue (au moins quelques temps) peut leur permettre de comparer les ventes.
Si la version "charge rapide" se vend bien mieux que la nouvelle, ils travailleront pour inclure cette possibilité dans la nouvelle, sinon... ils abandonneront l'ancienne dans quelques temps.

Ca dépend comment ils le présentent.
Mais pour l'instant c'est plutôt :
- Maintenant la Zoé a un peu plus d'autonomie, charge mieux à faible puissance chez vous, le moteur est plus souple, moins bruyant.
- Pour les cas particulier (flottes véhicule,...), il y a possibilité, moyennant 500 € de plus, d'avoir l'option 43kW. (mais sans les avantages du nouveau moteur).

Ca m'étonnerai qu'ils vendent beaucoup de "charge rapide", sauf si les vendeurs mettent en avant devant les clients les avantages que cela pourrait avoir, et n'insistent pas trop sur les "avantages" du nouveau moteur.

[scarred]

C'est comme la Tesla de base, je suis pas certain qu'elle se vende beaucoup ...

[Ke2]

Le sens du vent ça se modifie hein, en plus ce nouveau moteur ne pourrait pas non plus se charger en DC 50 alors quel est l'intérêt

Pourquoi ne pourrait-il pas se charger en DC 50 (si un jour la Zoe était adaptée pour le Chademo par exemple)

[scarred]

Ce n'est pas évoqué pour cette new Zoé et c'est complètement contradictoire avec le fait d'avoir la charge rapide toujours de disponible en 43 avec le premier moteur.

Bref le sujet c'était les 43 AC et Tesla

[Orville]

On peut brancher une Tesla sur une prise Chademo, pourquoi se soucieraient-ils d'une recharge AC 43 kW ?

[scarred]

As-tu lu la discussion du forum Tesla que j'ai posté ?

Le couple AC/DC en charge rapide n'est pas une obligation !

[Ke2]

Ce n'est pas évoqué pour cette new Zoé et c'est complètement contradictoire avec le fait d'avoir la charge rapide toujours de disponible en 43 avec le premier moteur.

Ce n'est pas évoqué,certes, ce n'est pas une raison pour déclarer au détour d'un post que ce moteur sera "incompatible avec le DC 50"...
C'est la Zoe qui est pour le moment incompatible avec le DC 50 puisqu'il n'y a pas de prise. Le moteur nouveau ou ancien n'a rien à y voir.

Bref le sujet c'était les 43 AC et Tesla

OK. Fin du HS.

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